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Logs of yesterday's dev meeting

 Dev meeting?  Would say so, yes  The people are still exhausted from the payment ID meeting :)  Guess we could ping some people  vtnerd, moneromooo, hyc, gingeropolous, TheCharlatan, sarang, suraeNoether, jtgrassie  Anyone up for a meeting?  Yep I'm here  Here  o/  Perhaps we should just start and people will eventually hop in?   oof   sorry guys, I'm working on the new FFS and I forgot all about this. Got a couple of new volunteers.   This literally might be able to launch tomorrow.  I know that. It's called "flow" :)  I could run if you're out of time?   go for it dEBRUYNE   you guys are going to like this new FFS. We're like 99% done.  Hi  rehrar: someone else do the milestone thing already?  All right, jtgrassie, perhaps you'd to start w/ briefly describing your most recent PR?   oneiric, xiphon did everything   like....everything  As far as I can see, it allows the user to push his transaction over I2P, thereby masking the origin IP of the sendeuser  great  And it hooks into vtnerd's PR right?  Sure. It basically just builds on vtnerds Tor stuff.  sorry dEBRUYNE  Really not much added.  I have it running and tested.  From the perspective of the user, what needs to be configured exactly?  Nice  Assuming the PR is included in the release binaries  I'm using knacccs i2p-zero duirng testing but will of course work with any i2p setup   sorry dEBRUYNE <= Np  Looks a little like dams breaking, now that we have some dark clouds over Kovri and people take matters into their own hands ...  User needs to run i2p, expose a socks service and and inbound tunnel.  Basically same as Tor  Okay, so should be reasonable as long as we write proper documentation for it (e.g. an elaborate guide)  rbrunner, yes, knaccc credit for jumping on i2p-zero really  dEBRUYNE: documentation monero side is kindof done. i2p side is very much implementation specific.  I suppose we could write some guides for the most popular implementations?  e.g. i2p-zero aims to be zero conf, but i2pd or Kovri would be differnet.  I see, great  vtnerd___: Do you want to add anything?  could amend the current kovri guide for monero use from --exclusive-peer to the new proxy support  Now I have i2p-zero running and tested with the #5091, I plan to jump back over to helping knaccc on getting that polished.  I added support for socks proxy in the basic wallets  ^ excellent  Yes vtnerd___ I havent tested it yet but looks sweet.  So connections to `monerod` over Toi2p are possible within wallet cli and wallet rpc  Awesome  This also implies auth+encryption even if ssl is not in use (when using an onion or i2p address)  All right  moneromooo: are you here? If so, could you perhaps share what you've been working on?  I am.  I revived the SSL PR, more stuff on multi sender txes, an implementation of ArticMine's new block size algorithm.  I presume a multi sender tx works similar to multisig insofar as the senders have to exchange data before the transaction can be performed right?  Yes.  There are 2 SSL PRs. What's the diff?  Theoretically this would also allow the sender to provide an output right? Which would be kind of similar to Bitcoin's P2EP  The second one adds some things like selecting a cert by fingerprint.  Yes.  (for the first sentence)  All right, awesome  For anyone reading, this breaks the assumption of the inputs belonging to a single sender, which makes analysis more difficult  Nice side-effect.  Much work coming for the various wallets to support that  rbrunner: Anything you'd like to share in the meeting btw?  Yes, just a little info  I have started to seriously investigate what it would mean to integrate Monero into OpenBazaar  I have already talked with 2 of their devs, was very interesting  In maybe 2 or 3 weeks I intend to write a report  Too early to tell much more :)  Soon^tm I guess :)  Yep  Currently wrestling with Go debugging  whole new world  moneromooo: Has pony recently shared any insights regarding the upcoming 0.14 release btw?  No.  All right  I would love to see the tor & i2p PR's merged sooner rather than later so we can get more testing done.  ^ +1  Isn't that famous early code freeze already on the horizon?  fluffypony, luigi1111 ^  I suppose I could provide a little update regarding the GUI btw  As always, lots of bug fixes and improvements :-P  selsta has recently added a feature to support multi accounts  dsc_ has revamped the wizard and will now start working on implementing the different modes and a white theme  dsc_ is working fulltime on the GUI already?  yes  :)   dsc_ is bae  In light of the recent payment ID discussion, we've also, by default, disabled the option to add a payment ID unless the user explicitely activates the option on the settings page  rehrar ^  nice   I spoke about this yesterday at the coffee chat, this is not a good decision.  How does it handle integrated addresses? The same way?  rehrar ?   For the next many months, we are still stuck with PAyment IDs in the ecosystem. Making it harder for people to access them will make Monero suck so hard to use for the average person for many months.  i agree with rehrar   Remove the option of Payment IDs when we remove Payment IDs  rehrar: The new GUI release won't be live until probably mid march though  Which is a few weeks in advance of the scheduled protocol upgrade   Payment ID removal comes in October   right, but Payment IDs are not removed in March  Did we not have loose consensus on removing the old, unencrypted payment IDs in march?   they are removed in October  We had discussed a deprecation in March  and a ban in October   ok, then if we are going to do that, we have to commit to it and contact the exchanges like Binance that use them and get rid of them in the next few months  (of unencrypted)   Binance is huge, and if they still use them, then people will be very upset that they can't deposit or use Payment IDs easily   I'm just speaking from a UX perspective.  I thought it was unencrypted in April and possibly encrypted in October  Yes I do agree  Timeline and notes:  impossible to remove them for march, many exchanges still use them  We can defer it to the 0.15 release if needed  Well, that wasn't the impression for them log that I just read today  This was all discussed in the earlier meeting linked above   We have to force the ecosystem off of Payment IDs before we remove them from the UI, is all I'm saying  Remove != make difficult to use  ... or make them more difficult there, right?  ping sgp_   sarang, I understand, and I agreed with you during that meeting. But then I started thinking of it as a UX person, which I am.   And that huge massive problem leapt out at me  i think making them difficult to generate is a good idea but making them difficult to consume and use is a bad idea  well, maybe not a good idea, but a better idea   ^  If we defer the decision to depriciate long payment IDs to october, won't we have the same issue then?  The UI can gave an expandable payment ID field like MyMonero and we can still call it deprecated   It is foolhardy to remove an option that the ecosystem uses. So I suggest we keep the Payment ID in the UI until October when they are completely banned.   no dEBRYUNE, because they will be banned via consensus  sgp_ imo it may be a misdirection of dev resources to add that since things are proceeding in the short term rather than long term  but this is a relatively minor point  Nothing matters til exchanges change  All right   The issue is that consensus will still have them in April, and exchanges won't upgrade because they are still allowed. Thus they must still be in the UI.  endogenic these changes are already merged in the GUI to hide it like you do  ok   But when they are banned, exchanges are forced to upgrade or stop using Monero, so we can remove them safely because they won't be in use  rehrar: that's a strong assumption   sarang that they will upgrade?  yes   if they don't, then they can't use Monero  If exchanges require pid, users need a way to set a pid. Making it hard for the user in the interim is just going to be a nightmare.   we have decided to take our "stand" in October  A way that is not too hard, then  To be clear, we still intend to deprecate long encrypted payment IDs in April right? But no enforcement until October   the term "deprecated" doesn't mean much if it's still allowed, and used in popular places   yes, as far as I understand it   jtgrassie, exactly  True I suppose  dEBRUYNE: we need to be more specific when talking about deprecation   the person who suffers is the user  There are two proposals for GUI deprecation:  1. Hide it in the send screen with a simple option to expand (currently merged iirc)  2. Hide it completely in the send screen unless users enable the field in advanced settings (PR'd but not merged yet iirc)  What are the arguments for 2?   Both are poor options, but 1 is better than 2 by a long shot   Well the people who need to be made to "suffer" are the exchanges. And I don't see a way to make exchanges "suffer" other than by having their suffering customers complain to them constantly that they need to update.  ^  CLI has something similar where users need to set a manual payment ID transfer mode. Not sure if it's merged yet   the way to make the exchanges suffer is when we ban PIDs. They either upgrade or don't use Monero.  exact;y  Agree with rerahr here  have exchanges been provided with clear, practical, sufficient technical upgrade plans for supporting what they're doing with PIDs but with subaddrs?    Both are poor options, but 1 is better than 2 by a long shot <= I wouldn't call 1. a poor option. Have you actually checked how it looks?  Because it states "Payment ID" and a user has to click on the + to expand the field  endogenic: yes the email when out. Blog post coming soon, but contains the same info as the email  also the exhcnages' users are often using wallets that don't support subaddresses  ok great   as well, it should be noted that the timeline for exchanges to upgrade is September, not October when the fork is.  Which wallets are that?  Rehrar: I don't see option 1. causing any issues/confusion  i guess it doesnt matter too much if withdrawing as a personal user the main address should suffice   Because September is when the new versions will be coming out without PIDs in the UI  If there's opposition to 2, 1 is fine. We can still call it deprecated which is the optics we need anyway   exchange users are often just using other exchanges lol. No wallets involved.   dsc_ dEBRUYNE, ok, I trust you guys here then  rbrunner: i was thinking mymonero last i heard  Ok  pigeons: rbrunner yes receiving on subaddresses won't be supported yet  sending to them has been possible though  and yes as learnandlurkin says often they withdraw to other systems like exhcnages that also dont yet support subaddresses  I really can't come up with any good argument for 2. right now  endogenic: seems not much of an issue then. Exchanges will typically support withdrawals to both subaddresses and plain addresses (especially if we are going to force them to use subaddresses)  For deposits, MyMonero works properly if the user sends to a subaddress  Actually the second solution was already merged:  Maybe not enough eyes watching :)   The important thing is to have done something to justify having a big "DEPRECATED IN APRIL" stamp on PIDs to spook exchanges in the interim  This was for solution 1:   The Monero Community Workgroup will start making noise everywhere we can to exchanges, and everywhere else that will listen. Try to get on those garbage news sites also.   So everyone knows that deprecated in April, and banned in September  Hey, for solution 1, write "Payment ID (optional, deprecated)" or similar there  rbrunner: noted  rehrar: probably wait until the blog post, but it should only be a few days   Maybe a Reddit sticky post would be useful?   With the blog post   If people are over freaking out about the hashrate  or terabyte blockchain :)  sigh  Any questions for the MRL side?  Is someone checking ArticMine's block size changes for weird behaviour in some cases etc ?  How would such testing work? Private blockchain?  I'm waiting on cost information from ArticMine to complete the model  Or just simulations?  Also, smooth suggested a mean rather than median for the 100000 block op. It would indeed be much nicer if it doesn't make the change worse.  You mean computationally or what?  Nicer ? Yes.  no sorting needed for mean  I'll add a separate sim for that  Well, just nicer. Forger the much.  Forger the Much sounds like the formal name of a Lord of the Rings character  :)  To close the payment ID discussion, in essence, we agree that we shouldn't make it difficult for the user to add a payment ID right (until 0.15 is released)  ?  I don't. I did make it harder.  In the CLI, somewhat other story, I would say  than the GUI  People there are used to juggle with options and CL parameters  rehrar: I recommend opening another issue to reverse 1866 and we can gather feedback on it there  Sounds good, to me at least   Dudes, if I do a Jitsi stream right now to show the new FFS in action, would you guys be interested in watching it?  I'd watch it, if the meeting is formally done  sure  yeah, can I start one and record it?   I'll give it in like fifteen minutes   I'll let you all know, stand by  I have a question on tx_extra if no one else has anything to talk about  People have said you can put arbitrary data in there in whatever format you want as long as you're willing to pay for it. However, do you need to mine the transaction for it to be included? I didn't think nodes would block transactions with arbitrary tx_extra data  It'll be in nodes' txpool when you relay it. A wallet could see it before it's mined.  moneromooo: will it be mined though?  by others  Is it valid ?  assume it's otherwise valid  Does it have a high enough fee ?  assume it does yes  I ran into conflicting information here:  Then it will probably be mined.  I once had the idea to put "my" MMS messages in there, looked at the code, and found no hard blocks for tx_extra data  That answer looks incorrect.  It is incorrect  If it will be mined, then that meets my assumption. There seems to be some misconception that people will not mine transactions with arbitrary tx_extra. I can add some comments there  And please don't spam it, and don't put fingerprintable stuff in it. It's meant to be here for *useful* stuff that's "uniform" enough.  It will be mined, whether a wallet *displays* the tx_extra is a different question.  I don't think any wallet currently displays that  it soes if its a pid  I think  Yeah, of course :)  Great, that answers my question 
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